Jai Gurudev! Shri Guru Ravidass Maharaj Ki Jai! Gali Gali Se Ayi Awaaz, Jai Ravidass, Jai Ravidass!

Inconvenient Truths

‘All men are born equal, but some it seems are more equal than others.’

If the fundamental premise of the Khalsa was to eradicate ‘caste’ and render all men equal, then I would argue that it has failed on every account.
Guru Gobind Singh founded the order to help the poor, the weak, the voiceless, the oppressed and the disenfranchised. The Khalsa served a moral, spiritual, temporal and revolutionary purpose, and for a brief moment in history it succeeded in uniting all the castes into one.

Alas! The reality we see today is somewhat different. The low castes are still a stigmatised people and denied their basic rights. For them religion has run its course as the every fabric of society is loaded against them. Consider the following;
The Gurdwara, traditionally the epicentre of the community and the faith, are all established and run along caste lines.
Rural Punjab life is segregated by caste. The lower castes are kept separate from mainstream polity in designated settlements called ‘thhattis’ or ‘chamadlees.’ These are invariably located on the outskirts of the village near the village sewers, thereby strengthening the notion of untouchability. This imposes restrictions on social interaction.
Intermarrying between castes is seldom practised and is taboo. Marriage is arranged wholly by caste with most Gurdwaras barring mixed caste weddings.
Access to the common village cremation grounds (shamlot) is denied to all low castes, they have to make do with their own make shift grounds.
Low caste Sikhs are labelled ‘Mazhbi’ or ‘Ramdassia’ to denote their low caste background, when surely the word Gursikh should suffice. The word mazbhi literally means convert, and gives the impression that they are not fully recognised members of the faith and therefore by implication outside the ambit of Sikhi. Pause for thought; aren’t all Sikhs converts.

On cursory examination the above points merely illustrate that everything from cradle to grave is kept separate by design. This in my opinion negates the central tenet of Sikhism ‘har manas ki ek jhaat pechanabo’ as invalid. Anyone who feels offended by these comments should however reserve their anger at those who perpetuate this injustice and status quo, because to remain silent simply keeps the problem very much alive.

38 responses

  1. sikh soul

    This is all yr own twisted thoughts no ref to anythink u have said…if anythink its your ppl who still don’t follow one route to god…some follow sikhi & hindu ways some think they can follow hindu rituals n then do phart at guruwara sorry its a BIG NO..! & if u don’t like it C YA..! We DON’T NEED YA..! Bet u don’t put my comment up…

    March 13, 2010 at 5:08 pm

    • khalsa spirit

      I completely agree with the above article. Sikhs in India are an absolute disgrace and have taken sikhism to the lowest depths they could possible take the religion. I squarely put the blame on Jatt Sikhs for the current situation.

      And ignorant people like Sikh Soul above literally live in Coo Coo land with a complete disregard for Truth. But this is of course expected as Truth is always the hardest thing to digest and recognise.

      We let the mission of Guru Gobind SIngh collapse. So sad.

      March 14, 2010 at 7:30 am

      • RAVIDASSIA ZINDABAD FORCE

        Followers of these gurus are one of the biggest idiots in the world which has resulted in BRAINWORTHY to form their own seperate identity. TODAY WE PROUDLY SAY WE ARE RAVIDASSIAS AND WE FOLLOW GURU RAVIDASS JI AMRITBANI and not guru granth which has taken the life of an innocent SANT RAMANAND JI. sikh codes are not only bad but followers are blind too cannot do anything making their own religion go down. THANX TO SACHKHAND BALLAN

        March 16, 2010 at 9:16 am

        • ek jatt

          good idea, i agree with you

          chamatkar ko namaskar
          hahaha,
          first demanding a seprate religion
          then a seprate island to live in.
          great chamatkar.

          September 24, 2010 at 10:50 am

          • THIS IS NOT A CHAMATKAR.
            THIS IS CHAMAR.
            WE HAD NOT DEMANDED THE SAPRATE RELIGION.
            THIS IS HUMAN RIGHT ONE CAN GO FOR HIS OWN WAY.
            ABOUT SPRATE ISLAND.NOT CHAMAR BUT U HAVE DEMANDED SAPRATE REGION AND U RS STILL DEMANDING.GREAT

            April 9, 2011 at 11:47 am

          • Ram Pal Gondia, Najaf Garh New, Delhi

            Dear ek jatt if you are not educated does not matter. Can you tell me the name of one member of chamar community who demanded a seperate island. No never. We are the citizen of the State of India. The demand of seperate island was raised by you people and you have seen the result. Do’nt try it again otherwise it will be too costly. We love our nation and donot sit in the lap of neighouring State. Do you have capability like Dr. Ambedkar and courage like Saheed-A-Azam Udham Singh and Zalkari Bai. Read the history. I advise you do not use incorrect language for any caste and religion. Respect them they will certainly respect you.

            Jai Guru Ravidas Ji.
            Proud to be a member of Chamar Community

            May 24, 2012 at 10:10 pm

        • BAD SPEECH

          April 9, 2011 at 11:48 am

        • Anonymous

          Disrespect to the Guru Granth Sahibji by anybody is foolhardy and get its own consequences. Guru granth Sahibji is a holy book which also includes the holy shloks of Guru Ravidass. Guru Ravidassji was a great saint,who was respected by other Gurus and even Kings and Queens although he had a rough time with the brahmins who harassed him because he was shudra. According to brahminism a shudra has not right to read religious texts ,or preach or worship God, evidenced by the killing of Shambuk in Valmiki’s Ramayan. He was a shudra, who was meditating in the jungle and not troubling anybody. Brahmins complained to Ram Chander who beheaded him.Other shudra saints including Kabir, Nam Dev also had similar difficulties as Ravidass. The Satgurus of shudra background were part of a part of a Bhakta Movement that had been started by Nam Dev and eventually joined by Guru Nanak. As he associated with the shudra Satgurus he was called a ‘Kraiyia’ by the Brahmins. Despite the problems he had with the brahmins he carried on with the mission. The Guru Granth Sahib is inspired by God the message of truth brought to the land where brahminism prevailed. It was to bring light of truth to the people of India and to take India out of darkness,blindness, ignorance and lies preached by Brahmins.They created religious rules ,custom, rituals ,ceremonies,superstitions, dieties and other devtas and their gods, high and lows of castes. They created a system we call brahminism. The problem the Gurus had was that their Message of Truth was presenting a great problem for the Brahmins, because the message was exposing the untruths of Brahminism. The very first person, Guru Argen DEv, who compiled and wrote the truth into a Granth, was executed by a muslim emperor on the advice of a brahmin, Chandu Shah. The Brahmins were counsellors and advisors to the muslim rulers. Through much of the development of sikhism brahmins were a pain.

          The problem we today is not with the one message of the Gurus but the followers.Brahminism spirit has entered the followers of the Gurus and is dividing and setting one against the other. That is the essence of brahminism – divide and rule. Caste politics is is dividing up the message of the Guru . What the Gurus have put together let no man put asunder. The Gurus really believe in what they preached and led by example. They had noble ideals and sacrificed everything they had for that mission. Brahminism is a contagion which has infected all Indians. This was the very infection the Gurus tried to remove from the Indian body and make indians whole again.

          All those who disrepect the Gurus Bani will receive just punishment. What we dont know for sure is why Sant Ramanand was martyred. He was not martyred by Guru Granth Sahib as suggested by the contributor above. He I believe was was martyred because he showed disrespect to Guru Granth Sahib. He was very unpopular and unwelcomed in many Guru Ravidass temples in the UK and even banned entry. He received his devotees or followers in the Darbar sahib in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib. They would bow unto him with their backs to Guru Granth Sahib. They did not bow to the Guru Granth Sahib. They went straight to him. I have witnessed this for myself. This is not acceptable. In the presence of Guru Granth Sahib nobody is greater worthy of worship. Many times he was advised to receive his followers in a seperate room, where Guru Granth Sahib was not present. Some who was a sant why did he have so much love for gold rings, which he wore on every finger, even though Guru Ravidass never touched heera chandi or gold , even one was presented to him by a King? . The devotees of the Ballan dera are showing the same disrespect to Guru Granth Sahib, which they should not. They have made their decision. They should profess and enhance their new religion without referring to Guru Granth Sahib. They should just speak for themselves and not for the whole Ravidassia Sikh community.

          I say to all sikhism followers follow Sikhism to the letter. Get rid of brahminism from your hearts and minds restore the original message and practice of the Gurus. Remove all barriers, descrimination and caste practice, allow your children to intermarry other sikhs, remove seperate temple and seperate cremation ground, treat all sikhs as brothers, and restore the spirit of Khalsa. The high committeeof the Sikhs at Amritsar let all sikh communities have representation and feel part of the decision making process.Punish those who profess caste and praise those who remove and destroy caste. Reinstate Singh as last name. Remove all caste names . Embrace all those seek come to sikhism and treat them like your family member. That was what Guru Govind Singh wanted. Lot of low caste came into sikhism to get away from brahminism. Now some people who control sikhism are driving the low caste sikhs away again who are finding refuge in make shift religions. There is lot to be done. Let those who can bear the burden of the sikhism mission come forward and lead the way and other please give your support. Only then we can move forward.

          December 13, 2011 at 1:34 pm

          • Bharat

            Why as a Sikh, you have so much hatred for Hindus, especially Brahmins? What was Shri Guru Nanak Dev ji ‘s original religion? Was he not born to Hindu Baniya community? From where did the the Sikhs crop up? Didn’t the Hindus gave at least a son each to the Guru’s battle to fight the tormentors? Why is it said that Hindus and Sikhs have a relation of Haad -Nakh (Bones and Nails) ? Is the bashing of your own forefathers permitted in the Holy Granth Sahib ji? Perhaps I am ignorant and would like to know your wise views!

            December 24, 2016 at 7:48 am

            • the illuminated

              Bharat, please read some of my other contributions under various headings under this website just for educational purpose. You see part of the problem is ignorance. They say ‘little knowledge is a dangerous thing’. The implication is that a small amount of knowledge can lead to overconfidence, leaping to invalid conclusions based on what you do know without taking into account the things that you don’t know. It’s contrasted with a large amount of knowledge, which would presumably lead one to be more cautious or to at least draw better conclusions. Far too many people express themselves with little knowledge and that leads them to wrong conclusions. That is why I believe in education and why people should be educated at least to a college level because ‘without college there is no knowledge.’ With educated people, provided they view subjects objectively and have all the relevant facts and evidence to support their view then you can have a meaningful discussion with them. Those who don’t have this capacity you will be the bigger fool to argue with ignorant or uneducated fool.

              Now please do not think that I hate Hindus because I don’t. In my’anonymous’contribution above I did not mention the word Hindu. What I hate is the same thing that the Gurus hated, the same thing Dr Ambedkar hated, the same thing that the Guru Granth Sahib hated. They all hated BRAHMINISM’ the ideology upon which the india’s social system and everything else is based. It is the system and the ideology they hated . We are trapped in the system. And it was this system that Mahatma buddha, Sikh Gurus, Dr AmbedKar and countless others wanted to change. Hindus themselves are a victim of the same system. I don’t blame them or hate them.

              I have brahmin and hindu friends and frequently enjoy discussions with them and they do not disagree with me on these because they know I am telling the truth. I give them facts and evidence from their own religious books.

              As far as Guru Nanak is concerned, yes he was a high caste khatri/banyia, was born into Bedi sub-caste and was of hindu religion, but he rejected Brahminical Hinduism. You need to read more else as to why.. I do not have time to explain the details. Some people like to say that Sikhism was born out of Hinduism. No Sikhism was born because the Gurus and the earlier Bhakti Movement proponents had rejected Hinduism. It is not an offshoot of Hinduism. When you do comparative study you will see it was not born out of Hinduism.

              As far as giving a son to Guru is concerned. This practise emerged after the Kashmiri brahmin pandits and other hindus were forcibly being converted to Islam by the Muslim Emperor Aurangzeb. This was a new state policy. The brahmins approached Guru Govind Singh for protection it was at that deal making the arrangement came about. The Hindus agreed that to get protection they had to give one son who would become a baptised sikh and and then give protection to their brethren. They did not become Sikhs because they loved sikhism. The Moguls hated the Sikhs because they had become a military force with weapons and martial skills, a direct threat to the State and Muslim rule in India
              The Hindus and Sikhs united, for mutual benefit, against the Muslim oppressers. Prior to the brahmin forciful conversions, the brahmins enjoyed colluding and collaborating with the muslims against the Sikhs, even gave their daughters in marriage to the muslims to get patronage and other positions in the royal courts. Under previous muslim emperors they became their advisors. Thus were very close to them. When they were now subjected to violent conversions they had no obvious ally they could turn to, but turn to the very people they had been harassing in the past – the Sikhs, because the sikh ideology went against Brahminism. Guru Nanak was called ‘karaiya’ – a rebel. All the Gurus shaloks speak of the harassment from the brahmins, who constantly complained to Kings about the Gurus and their mission. Guru Argen was killed in 1606 after he completed writing the Sikh Holy book in 1604, by the Muslim emperor on the advice of Chandu Shah, a Brahmin advisor. The brahmins could not accept new ideology based on Truth, because the new truth exposed the lies of brahminism cloaked in Hinduism. Even today the Brahmins are trying to kill off the Sikh religion. They are cladded in BJP, RSS, Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal etc etc. They are a wily lot.

              Now I do not hate the Brahmins but the ideology they had created, maintained and enforced for the past few thousand years. This ideology served them and their allies well, the Kashtriyas and Banyias. They form approximately 15% of the India’s population, while the rest of India were the shudras, who formed bulk of the India’s population, nearly 80% and they call themselves paradoxically call themselves as ‘hindus.’ The caste Ideology made them the victims of the system. But they are proud to be called Hindus. The Brahmins and its allies are happy to keep the system because it suits them fine, And as they are always in political power why should they? And……..

              This is a big subject. but I hope I thrown some light for you to see through the darkness. Be enlighted and illuminate others, then you will be the illuminated

              January 12, 2017 at 10:01 am

  2. Jas Mann

    Not demanding a seperate religion, (this statement implies we need third party-hindu/sikh approval) BABY…We HAVE formed a seperate religion! no demands – no requests! And no, we dont require a seperate land to live in as INDIA is OURS..

    sorry to say it but i have to agree with the author. Sikhi has been reduced to nothing but hypocracy. Im British born and bred and I know many Takhaan sikhs who constantly complain about their third class status within the sikh fold.
    Let the truth be told…. Sikhism has been hijacked by the JATT BOOTS.

    February 11, 2011 at 8:49 am

    • Anonymous

      Excellent Dear. Good lesson to the illiterate people. Keep it up.

      Jai Guru Ravidas Ji Ki.

      Proud to be a member of Great Chamar Community.

      May 31, 2012 at 9:36 pm

  3. Mandeep

    first of all, do a check up on your language to all of you calling sikhi hyprocrisy…one of the commentors said those who follow gurus are idiots, who are you? are you god? did Bhagat ravidass give you the right to judge? FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS FIRST, you ignorant fool !(again i was not critisizing ravidassias but the individual commentor) how can you blame jatts? for your information, jatt isn’t a CASTE, chamar is a CASTE, jatt is a RACE, you can not equate JATT with CHAMAR they are DIFFERENT. this being said, it doesn’t mean they are above or below one another, but simply you can’t equate them as CASTES because one is not. another thing i notice about this site is alot of people post comments and what not and they are NOT cited. i cant remember where exactly but one person stated how a ‘lower’ caste couldn’t take amrit, first of all SIkhism doesn’t have CASTE. Secondly you kind of contradict yourselves (Hindu Chamars) because Hinduism formed the caste system and you follow it! YET you critisize Sikhism. This is where I see the future, by forgetting the simple teachings of the GGS, you are commiting idoltry worship and others which are forbidden and essentially hindu practices, so basically you are putting yourself in a state of oppressed people by reverting back to your old ways! SImply can not accept the fact that you were given equality eh?

    April 6, 2011 at 4:19 pm

    • The illuminated

      Mandeep you say that Jatt is a ‘race’ and not a caste. Do you also accept the fact that the Scots, the English, Welsh etc are races. Do you also know that every race have their their own tradesmen and different professions, businessmen and traders, farmers etc. and their own region or country. If the jatts are just farmers, from within the jatt race where are your carpenters, your shoemakers, goldsmiths, metalsmiths..etc etc. and where is you country or region. In Indian history or world history there is no record of jattland or jattstan. Stop delluding yourself you fool, grow up don’t read stuff written in some websites. The whole thing is a theory devised by some jatt. To say jatts are a race is to deny they are unaffected by the contagion of the caste system and yet tare to do your research jatt surnames fall into so many different castes in the punjab. Don’t tell me the other castes are ‘moonlighting’ jatt surnames. You do know that when males from different castes have same surnames it means that they have the same y chromozone and therefore will be related. I challenge you to find a person from different caste to you and have his blood tested by genelogist and you will understand the shock of truth. Don’t live in ignorance be enlighjtened.

      January 30, 2012 at 10:59 am

    • The illuminated

      Whilst I agree with you on most of what you said but I don’t agree with the ‘Jatt being a race’. Read my comment below.

      January 31, 2012 at 9:01 am

      • Anil, it was great pleasure to read this wofrednul post about your Bijapur visit…beautiful pictures.While growing up we knew few karnataka Muslim families who had ties to Bijapur, my parents visited Bijapur few times. I always wished to visit but could never go.Your post brought back so many nice memories.Thanks.

        March 14, 2013 at 3:28 am

  4. GOOD

    April 9, 2011 at 11:35 am

  5. Rav

    According to the caste system I’m a “so called” a chamar and I think this is absolute bull***t. Made to create hatred rather than educate people about true value of gods name. This site should concentrate on being better and stepping away from caste but you are firmly rooting yourselves into it.

    If you guys want to follow the Ballan sants go ahead but they’re not the leaders of the Ravidassia commmunity. Most of us do not approve of the Amritbani being installed into our gurdwaras. If it wasn’t for the Shri Guru Granth Saab, the sacred teaching of Guru Ravidass Ji would have either been lost or hijacked by some Hindu Brahmin.

    The people that put this site togther are too tied up on creating an identity based of the very caste system that Guru Ravidass Ji despised of.

    ….and Mandeep, “Jatts are a different race”????? Seriously are you out of your mind? Next you’ll be saying they are aliens from a different planet lol.

    December 8, 2011 at 8:19 am

    • Anonymous

      well said rav i agrre with you everything you said , about ballan we respect every
      dera but ballan is not our leader like you said about the people running this site
      i said the same about them but it looks they only like to listen about ballan people like these are dividing our community . about jatt who are they human like , these days our
      childern are marrying inter cast ie jatt boy chamar girl or vise varsa . like you l myself
      asked the same question from this site .

      January 5, 2012 at 2:22 pm

  6. Anonymous

    You’re all dirty camars now fuck off back to the chamadlee!!!!!!

    February 8, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    • lakhpati

      The chamars and other low castes, due to poverty, had a reason to go abroad to seek their fortune. What I don’t understand is why the Jatts went abroad ?. They had their farms to look after them of which they are so proud. Why did they leave to work as labourers in factories in England and their women worked at airports as cleaners cleaning laterines. I thought they were very proud of farming. This shows the jatts are quite happy to prostitute themselves for money. Even after all this they are still happy to call themselves as jatts. If they are so proud as farmers they are the ones who should f…off to their small farms and work as Peasants. Thats what they are peasants with peasant mentality. They just don’t learn do they, that’s because they are mentally stunted.

      May 18, 2012 at 11:20 am

    • Usha: Thank you. nice to know you enjoyed riaedng the post.Bijapur is a must visit. There’s a certain old world charm still surviving in the city, and in its monuments it paints a time of glory now past.Ibrahim Adil Shah II is particularly credited with attempting to develop a syncretic culture, something his predecessors were alien to.

      March 14, 2013 at 2:16 am

  7. Anonymous

    So then you admit chamars “prostituted” themselves aswell??? No matter what happens a chamar will always be a chamar mate!

    July 26, 2012 at 5:21 pm

  8. Anonymous

    Confused deluded souls….when will you learn…drink the Amrit of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and remove the shackles of casteism…Dera Ballan is a fraud the fact that its called dera says it all. Amrit shakoh Guru deh Singh bano!!!

    VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WHAEGURU JI KI FATEH

    July 26, 2012 at 5:25 pm

  9. giani

    Jatts have left and forgotten what their religion was all about.
    They have taken over and run things along caste lines. Their excuse is that they are a race and not a caste. Surely race should also be eliminated.
    Marry your daughters into chamar families then we will see how ‘sikh’ you are.
    You only want us when it means YOU are in control and running things.
    We are proud Ravidassias now and don’t need your hypocrisy.

    August 1, 2012 at 3:22 pm

  10. Anonymous

    dumb fucking chamars, made up religion. Bhagat Ravidas was against organised religion

    August 4, 2012 at 7:37 pm

  11. Anonymous

    Chamars have only become politically mobile in Punjab because of Sikhism cross the border into Haryana and they are still being treated like dogs!!!

    August 4, 2012 at 7:41 pm

  12. Anonymous

    August 4, 2012 at 7:44 pm

  13. Anonymous

    All chamars had to do was take Amrit….Sikhism was created for you….fools

    August 22, 2012 at 9:06 pm

  14. Anonymous

    You say gursikh would suffice bubto be a gursikh you have to follow the Rayat Maryada, so maybe if ou preached about the Maryada and not jus doing Aarti all the time you might Learn something!!!

    September 15, 2012 at 8:09 pm

  15. jt

    The khalsa was created to stand above, as a group of elite people based on character – king philosophers – it was relates to those group of people who have and are independent of. Semetic and hindoo perspectives (but related somewhat). Note the idea of the Value of character, not. Money, status or other measures.

    If you think that sounds like you, give it a shot!

    November 10, 2012 at 7:30 am

  16. GqmlYmrB

    I would like to talk to you. Mens Snow Mantra Parka
    I consider, that you are not right. I am assured. Let’s discuss. Write to me in PM, we will talk.To fill a blank?In my opinion, it is error.

    December 4, 2012 at 4:34 am

  17. YztkgFVn

    What good question Mens Constable Parka
    It is already far not exceptionPrompt reply, attribute of ingenuity ;)It was registered at a forum to tell to you thanks for the help in this question, can, I too can help you something?

    December 4, 2012 at 8:32 am

  18. Anonymous

    True teaching of Guru Ravidass, Nanak and Kabir

    1. Never covet anything, either of body or wealth: take not of another. God is the giver of all things, as your trust is in Him so shall you receive.

    2. When asked what you are, declare thyself a Sadh, speak not of caste, nor engage in controversy, hold your faith, put not your hope in men.

    3. Never eat nor drink intoxicating substances, nor chew pan, nor smell perfume, nor smoke tobacoo, nor chew nor smell opium, hold not up your hands, bow not your head in the presence of idols or of men.

    How many of these do do actually follow?

    April 14, 2013 at 4:09 am

  19. Anonymous

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_Light_Infantry

    June 12, 2013 at 11:58 pm

  20. Ranvir Kumar

    all this is false. The reason why ravidassia chumars and ramdhasia sare not respected by every caste of Sikhism is because they WORSHIP bhagat ravidass like a God do mootee pooja to him like hindus do to this gods. The disgraceful selective worship that ravidassia chumars have puts themoutside sikhi therefore tthis is why they are marginalised. Sure casteism plays it part but if you show me a chumar or a jatt regardless of their caste if they only believe in mainstream Sikhis they would be accepted as a brother in faith. At the moment worshipping bhagat ravidass makes em look like plain and simple low caste hindus that they are.

    June 29, 2013 at 8:25 am

  21. Jagdeep singh Kailey

    I belong to Jat Sikh family. I fully agree with the rationale given in the article.
    What can be done? I think the high morals that Guru sehban created for us need to be preached afresh and not left to the domain of so called high castes.
    Let the truth be spoken and also let the truth be recognized that fault lies with Sikh clergy that exploited gullible masses to divide and rule. I would term the ruling party Akali Dal nothing else than a failed clergy that exploits religious sentiments.
    Alas! It continues to happen. However I think people must refrain from making derogatory comments against one another. That is not the spirit of spirituality. May peace be upon us all.

    June 24, 2015 at 1:40 pm

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